The Guns & Ammo Network



The Rundown on “Fast and Furious”

Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was killed by an AK-47 that was put in the hands of his murders by the ATF's ill-advised "gun walking" operation -- Fast and Furious.

With the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee recommending U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder be held in Contempt of Congress, and President Obama citing “Executive Privilege” and refusing to turn over numerous documents the congressional investigative committee has requested as part of their investigation into Operation Fast and Furious, this governmental debacle is all over the news.  Gun owners should pay particular attention.

 

The mainstream media has done their best to ignore or downplay this scandal, and a sure sign that is no longer working is the push in the past few days to blame this scandal on George W. Bush, just like he’s been blamed by the Democrats and the media for the current state of the economy, the price of gas, the housing market collapse, global warming, and the failure of Madonna’s most recent album.

 

The media is currently shouting how Bush was doing this kind of thing with Operation Wide Receiver before Obama and Holder started Fast and Furious.  My mother always told me that just because another kid is doing something stupid is no excuse for me doing the same thing, but let’s look at the facts.

 

The BATF began running “gunwalking” sting operations in 2006, during President Bush’s second term.  The umbrella was Project Gunrunner, something the ATF decided to do because of complaints that all they ever did was harass FFL holders for minor violations.  The idea behind Project Gunrunner was to track down and arrest people for illegal gun trafficking, specifically high-level members of Mexican drug cartels.  The idea was to track the guns that were “allowed” to be bought by straw purchasers to higher-level traffickers, leading to their arrest.  This was described as “gunwalking”.

 

Operation Wide Receiver was the first “gunwalking” operations, and it ran from 2006-2007.  The ATF worked with one FFL dealer, Mike Detty, who originally contacted them about a suspicious sale.  Through him they arranged a “sting” where a total of 450 guns were sold.  A number of the guns had RFID tracking devices installed in them, and no guns were knowingly allowed to go into Mexico without direct surveillance. For shipments heading across the border, Mexican authorities were notified where and when and were supposed to interdict them.

 

Many people inside the ATF thought this was a very risky program, and it was.  They soon lost track of many of the guns, as the smugglers discovered the RFID tags and removed them.  Also, the Mexican authorities, who were supposed to be cooperating, proved less helpful than had been hoped, and didn’t stop a number of cross-border shipments.  Due to a lack of success, the ATF shut down this operation in 2007.  While a handful of people have been arrested due to illegal activities during Wide Receiver, these indictments/arrests took years to occur.

 

A House Oversight and Government Reform Committee has recommended that U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder be held in contempt.

Operation Fast and Furious reportedly developed out of a desire expressed in 2009 by the Obama administration to once more go after the Mexican drug cartels.  ATF officials decided they’d had such great success with Operation Wide Receiver (insert confused expression here) that another gunwalking operation was what was called for, and so Operation Fast and Furious was born.

 

Over 2000 guns were ultimately sold to known straw purchasers in Operation Fast and Furious.  Agents in the field watched guns being bought illegally and stashed on a daily basis, but were prevented by their supervisors from making any arrests.  No tracking devices were installed in any of the guns, and there was no attempt to stop any of them from getting into Mexico.  With all of these guns, it seemed to be only a matter of time before they were used in some sort of crime that garnered media attention, and in this case it was the December 14, 2010 murder of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry by illegal aliens using two AKs that were traced back to the Fast and Furious program.

 

Several ATF agents, who had expressed concern internally over gunwalking operations, immediately reported this incident to ATF headquarters, ATF General counsel, the ATF ethics section, and the Office of the Inspector General in the Justice Department.  They got no response, and so then contacted Senator Chuck Grassley (R-IA).  Operation Fast and Furious soon became public knowledge, and only then was the operation stopped.

 

In January 2011 there was a press conference where U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, who originally signed off on the legality of Fast and Furious before it was implemented, reported a 53-count indictment against 20 suspects as part of Fast and Furious.  At that news conference, Bill Newell, ATF Special Agent in Charge of the Phoenix Division, who was involved in implementing Fast and Furious, denied that guns had been deliberately allowed to get into Mexico.  In kindergarten I learned that this is what is called a “lie”.

 

Mexican drug cartels warring over smuggling routes into the U.S. has led to a deadly esclation of violence.

Current numbers show that 2,020 guns were purchased by straw purchasers during Operation Fast and Furious, and only 665 of those guns have been recovered either in the U.S. or Mexico.  The rest are unaccounted for, and a majority of them are believed to have gone to the Sinaloa drug cartel.  As of October 2011, guns found at 170 crime scenes in Mexico have been linked to Fast and Furious.  U.S. Representative Darrell Issa has estimated that more than 200 Mexicans have been killed by guns linked to the operation.

 

ATF supervisor Bill Newell, and two other supervisors involved in Fast and Furious (David Voth and William McMahon) have been transferred to new management positions at the ATF headquarters.  These transfers were initially reported as promotions, but this has since been denied. ATF Agent Vince Cefalu, who helped publicize Fast and Furious, was fired.  Senator Grassley has accused the ATF of targeting the whistleblowers in its ranks.  Say it isn’t so, the ATF has such a virtuous and honorable history!

 

Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich wrote a letter to Senator Grassley in which he said claims “… that (the) ATF sanctioned or otherwise knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons to a straw purchaser who then transported them to Mexico (are) false.”  The U.S. Justice Department retracted that letter in December 2011, with Attorney General Eric Holder stating that Weich did not know that the information he provided was inaccurate.  Weich resigned last week.

 

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder has repeatedly denied that he knew anything about Fast and Furious until after Brian Terry’s death.  So has President Obama.  There are 1300 pages of documents that the congressional committee has requested, but the administration has refused to turn over, The President has, for the first time in his term, exercised Executive Privilege, and many people suspect there might be information in there contradicting Holder’s statements.  Republicans have stated that, by denying access to these documents, the President has all but admitted being involved in Fast and Furious discussions.

 

White House Press Secretary Jay Carney stated that the Justice Department has “provided every document” that pertains to Fast and Furious.  Senator Grassley replied, “Hogwash.  Through my investigation, I know there are reams of documents related to the operation itself that the Justice Department has refused to turn over to Congress.”

 

In a December 2, 2011 letter, the Justice Department acknowledged Operation Fast and Furious was “fundamentally flawed”.  Gee, ya think?  Carlos Canino was an ATF agent in Mexico who didn’t know anything about Operation Fast and Furious, but became concerned when hundreds of guns began flooding into the country.  When testifying before Congress, he stated that never in his wildest dreams would he have thought that law enforcement authorities would allow guns to be provided to Mexican criminals.  He stated that “walking guns” was not a recognized investigative technique.  Even the Mexican Senate has condemned the actions of the ATF.

 

So why do it?

 

People interested in banning guns have always tried an incremental approach, and going after ugly or “evil-looking” guns, like so-called assault weapons, has been one technique.  They have also tried going after the non-existent “gun show loophole”, and now they are trying to get the EPA to ban ammunition in its entirety.

 

It’s been postulated by many people that the main impetus behind the implementation of Operation Fast and Furious was to generate huge negative press for guns and the American gun owner, so the administration could more easily push anti-gun legislation through Congress.  Specifically, blame Mexican drug cartel violence on U.S. gun stores and our “lax” gun laws.  Is that true?  I doubt we’ll ever know.  But look at the facts:

 

  • Thousands of guns were knowingly purchased by straw buyers who then took them into Mexico.
  • There no tracking devices on the guns
  • Mexican authorities were not notified
  • The ATF never attempted to stop the transportation of these guns out of the country
  • No indictments or arrests were announced until well after the program was shut down, after Brian Terry was murdered.

 

Insert your own conclusion about their motivations here, but that’s the weirdest, most ineffective sting operation I’ve ever heard of.  Rush Limbaugh has stated that “Fast and Furious was an effort to build a case against the Second Amendment and American gun dealers.”  I don’t know if he’s right, but that explanation makes sense, given the facts we know.

 

What I do know is that there are two political parties in Washington D.C.  One of those parties has, almost without exception, done whatever it could to limit or eliminate the ability of private citizens to purchase or own firearms. Eric Holder, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, and most of the other high-ranking Democrats have made statements indicating that they are against the idea of private gun ownership in this country, either in whole or in part.  Obama, prior to being elected President, stated in person to Professor John Lott, “I don’t think people should be allowed to own guns.”  This being America, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it is directly contrary to the U.S. Constitution….

 

Government is a necessary evil.  I mean both those words—it is both necessary, and evil. “Gunwalking” is complete idiocy.  The fact that the ATF came up with it during Bush’s time in office is irrelevant, as far as I’m concerned.  When has the government ever done anything well?  That goes triple for the ATF.  At least the ATF under Bush ended the program when they saw it wasn’t working, without public outcry being a part of their decision-making process.

 

The Second Amendment doesn’t have anything to do with hunting, or even defending yourself against criminals.  It specifically enumerates your right to keep and bear arms so you have what you need to resist a tyrannical government.  The writers of the Bill of Rights never said whether or not that tyrannical government would be a foreign one.  Pay attention, and vote.

 

  • LibertarianMan

    The government screwed up – lots of blame to go around. You might try using facts instead of innuendo and rumor. It might make your articles more valuable. Additionally, balance is important in presenting a valid argument and your article is lacking there as well.

    Nice, uninformed rant though. Do you really consider yourself a journalist?

    Are you that into cognitive dissonance? It certainly seems to be the case.

    • Gary1836

      ….said the paid Obama troll Libertarrianman.

      • Alan_T

        Yeah , no kidding Gary !

    • FredtheHater

      Lots of facts in the article, probably why you are all stirred up there Mr. Leftist.
      Rant all you want, we know the truth and what you represent………

    • chezman

      Libman:
      You need to get your facts straight. this write is factual. Go home to the Obama camp!!

  • dvpog

    Like the slogan I've seen says …OMG. Obama Must Go….executive privilege just proves it….In 2008 I made the right choice I didn't vote for Obama.

  • TZen

    So much for transparency.

  • John

    Obama and Holder—both idiots need to be unemployed, or better yet go to prison…:)

  • John Neyhart

    You can't trust Holder or Obama in this matter. Impeach comes to mind over this mess Obama has created. Watch out for the U.N. and the SMALL ARMS TREATY !!!! We need to kick Obama out in 2012 and really did into his past because there a ton of questions need answered.

    J.C.

  • Lazarus

    Libertarian~ You're a moron………..

  • oldgringo

    Depending on whose article you are reading…..The number of guns that were allowed to cross over our borders during the fast and furious operation was closer to 3000…..The number of Mexican nationals to include some US citizens who have been killed with these same weaponshas been reported also at near 3000 number…..Hard to say whose numbers are correct although I suspect this author's numbers to be the more realistic…..Did Holder release these numbers?…Never mind…..Liar Liar Pants On Fire!

    • James Tarr

      Oldgringo- in researching this article I ran across a wide variation in the reported numbers, and went with the most conservative estimates

  • Food for thought.

    Well explained my friend, a chronological reminder of the facts in this case known so far. The only reason for a President to invoke executive privilige after a blown operation is to contain the fallout and give the rats a chance to get rid of the most damning evidence. I can guarantee you this operation was conceived by a group of high to mid level bureaucrats in Main Justice and was followed closely by the Attorney General and elements of the National Security team in the White House. Folks are now looking for get out of jail for free cards. This was a foot in the door subersive operation cobbled together in a hurry to meet some phony deadline made up by a Holder accomplice trying to get noticed. This has to be the most corrupt Justice Dept. in the history of our Great Nation, God help us as we are in the hands of people hell bent to destroy our constitution and way of life. VOTE this slime out before it is too late!!!!!!

  • Uncle Lar

    F&F was begun at just about the same time that Fox and the NRA thoroughly debunked the administration claim that 90% of recovered Mexican guns originated in the US. Using complete numbers the percentage was somewhere between 8 and 17%. The discrepancy due to possible double bookkeeping in the reporting systems. To reach 90% you must only consider those firearms that were preselected as probable US civilian arms.
    Completely coincidental I'm sure. This administration is all about full disclosure even when it makes them look bad, isn't it?

  • fedman

    Sir,
    A well written article and accurate. I'm a retired federal agent and can verify from first hand knowledge the many moronic actions taken to advance careers. THIS IS JUST ANOTHER STUPID AND DANGEROUS EXAMPLE. I know because I"VE BEEN THERE..DONE THAT.

    • Gadsdengun-1*

      Only an amature advertises…

  • coyotegj

    To LibertarianMan, if you voted for Obama in the previous election to prove that you were a Liberal, you might ought to vote against him this time to prove that you aren't stupid.

  • LibertarianMan

    I have never seen so much cognitive dissonance in my life.

    There are lots of reasons to not like this administration, but try to stick with the facts. Reading will be required, it is not likely that pictorial representations will not get you to where you need to be here, which may limit some.

    Even Issa says there is not a scintilla of evidence or proof of ANY senior administrative personnel in this – and that is a fact. You can check it out.

    It is a hard pill to swallow and impossible for many, that the facts simply don't support one's preconceived ideas. But that is life.

    • Gadsdengun-1*

      20 dollar words…_Be a simple man…makes more sense with less glitter.

  • LibertarianMan

    But, as my Daddy said, never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    The responses here are the best argument for gun control I have ever seen – and I love my guns…

    • Captain Bob

      It seems to me that, rather than dissonance, YOU are the only one here who has a different opinion. All the other Posters unanimously agree. And, if you are what you say you are (which I seriously doubt) why would you spread discord rather than explaining your position? Seems to me that the facts support not only the writer's but everyone else's statement. Perhps you jsut enjoy stirring the pot to get reactions (=troll) but why bother when you are so outnumbered and your miniscule opinion is being laughed at?

    • James Tarr

      Sorry, LibMan, but if you really were a Libertarian, you'd know there are NO good arguments for gun control….but please feel free to communist agitate–oops, I mean community organize–away. Better we all know exactly what you believe.

      • Alan_T

        Mr . Tarr , I don't know why these " trolls " like LibertarianMan bother wasting theirs and our time with their B . S . . They ought to be aware that they aren't going to change anyone who is pro Second Amendments minds . Although , I'm sure that for LIbertarianMan , it's chance for him to try to make himself feel superior .
        Obviously from his acid – spewing diatribe he is so hate filled ….. his life must be a living hell .

  • jdh

    LibertarianMan, you do not sound like much of a libertarian to me, more like a left-wing fascist. the denial of information is for the protection of senior administrative personnel. don't you think holder fits this category? it is also plain to see you have little respect for the constitution, especially the 2nd amendment.

  • mdl46033

    1st, it's important to remember that no one realized their right's were being taken away in Germany until firearms
    were confiscated & Jew's shipped off to camp's as well as their business's taken away.
    2nd i've heard a lot this sort before from folk's like LIBMAN about , say take for instance,. tea party rallies while
    having never been to one.(all about tax &adherence to the constitution)
    3r Sad is it not , that LIBMAN would have been one of those poor folk's distraught , saying (while being drug away) ''but wait, ADOLPH ORGANIZED LABOR PARTIES &GOT US ON OUR FEET AGAIN- HE'S TAKING CARE OF US''

  • permindex

    "Lawyer for Chiquita in Colombia Death Squad Case May be Next U.S. Attorney General"

    Obama and his Jesuit controllers are famous for electing pigs who wear
    Jesuit Black Pope's lipstick.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-kovalik/lawyer-…

    • Alan_T

      So ………. permindex …….. I see you went off your meds .

  • Frank

    If you voted for Obummer in 2008 to prove you aren't a racist you need to vote for someone else in 2012 to prove you're not an idiot! As for myself I would vote for a dead dog before I would vote for Obama!!! Somewhere in Kenya a village is missing its idiot!

  • Frank

    If it can be preoven that Obama is ineligible to be president, doesn't that mean all the bills he signed is null and void?

  • LibertarianMan

    Facts:

    Issa has spent $25 million in over a year of investigation
    The DoJ has provided some 9,000 documents to Issa – with no problem.
    DoJ agreed to provide the additional docs if, upon investigation, there was no "smoking gun" that the witch hunt would end, even though many of the requested docs are subject to attorney-client privilege.
    Exectuive privilege has been used 24 times since Reagan – Bush used it 6 times, including 4 times that were eventually struck down by the courts or OBE.
    Issa has stated there is no evidence of any WH cover-up or involvement..
    Issa's CoS offered to drop the request and close the investigation if DoJ would fire Breutz [sp?].
    DoJ said they wouldn't becasue who worked at DoJ was for DoJ to decide – the CoS said they wwould hold Holder in comtempt.,
    Issa, by his own admission, after over a year and $25million has nothing to show for it and needs to justify his actions.

    Further, for gun fans, you are using the same logic that gun control fans use in saying that it was the guns who killed, not the whacko Mexican drug lords. I, personally put the blame on the drug lords, but if you want to blame the gun supplier, then you should join the gun control folks.

    Just for the record, I don't like Obama, but I try to base my displeasure and dislikes on facts, not ill informed, irrational, hysterical rantings. There are so many good reasons to not like him, to not re-elect him, why chose one that is the fabrication of some shallow, megalomaniac like Issa, who is only trying to not look like the charlatan that he is.

    And yep, I'm a real Libertarian – not a sheep blindly following, Lemming-like where ever intellectually challenged people would like for me to go.

    • Wolvie

      (The REAL) Facts (Part 1):

      “Issa has spent $25 million in over a year of investigation”

      Yes, exposing corruption and criminal activity is expensive.

      “The DoJ has provided some 9,000 documents to Issa – with no problem. “

      WRONG!!! Take a look at those documents that were provided. Most of them were so heavily redacted that they were nothing more than black pages. You don’t get credit for handing over a blank page nor do you get credit for handing over “some” of the documents.

      Officer: License, registration and insurance card please.
      Holder: (Handing over one black piece of paper) Here you go.
      Officer: Um, what is this?
      Holder: What you asked for.
      Officer: I asked for 3 things…you gave me one that is not legible.
      Holder: Hey you!! I’m complying!!!

      “DoJ agreed to provide the additional docs if, upon investigation, there was no "smoking gun" that the witch hunt would end, even though many of the requested docs are subject to attorney-client privilege. “

      You don’t get to pick and choose what to hand over during a House investigation. And don’t even TRY to go with attorney/client privilege when both the attorney AND the client(s) are the ones under investigation.

      “Exectuive privilege has been used 24 times since Reagan – Bush used it 6 times, including 4 times that were eventually struck down by the courts or OBE.”

      And your point is? Oh yeah, that’s right…”Its Bush’s fault”. Yeah, we are all used to you leftists trying that excuse because, by your very nature, you shun and abhor personal responsibility.

      “Issa has stated there is no evidence of any WH cover-up or involvement..”

      Again, selective quoting.

      Issa has stated that the DOCUMENTS they requested that THEY ARE NOT TURNING OVER must be reviewed to see how high this scandal goes. The fact that in the zero hour of the contempt proceedings, President Obama has exercised executive privilege is interesting, suspicious and ultimately damning.

      “Issa's CoS offered to drop the request and close the investigation if DoJ would fire Breutz [sp?].”

      I don’t care for “a friend of a friend told me…” You show me, in specific quotes or press releases, where Issa said he would drop the investigation if a single person was fired. Show me this evidence.

      “DoJ said they wouldn't becasue who worked at DoJ was for DoJ to decide – the CoS said they wwould hold Holder in comtempt.,”

      Again, more hyperbole. If you see/prove/demonstrate someone doing something ILLEGAL in a government position or capacity, then you absolutely have the right to pursue their removal from said position. The fact that the DOJ removed some people while promoting others (because of their silence or unwillingness to cooperate with the investigation) shows intent on their part to keep engaging in criminal activity. This fits into a RICO act.

    • Wolvie

      (The REAL) Facts (Part 2):

      “Issa, by his own admission, after over a year and $25million has nothing to show for it and needs to justify his actions.”

      His actions have been and still are entirely and completely justified. He has stated that in a year and a half, he is still getting stonewalled and the DOJ is still failing to completely comply with the subpoenas.

      This is perfect Leftist mentality…hide the evidence, refuse to comply and then scream that there is no evidence.

      “Further, for gun fans, you are using the same logic that gun control fans use in saying that it was the guns who killed, not the whacko Mexican drug lords. I, personally put the blame on the drug lords, but if you want to blame the gun supplier, then you should join the gun control folks.”

      Really? There is no amount of logic (real or imagined) that could possibly support that statement. We are not blaming inanimate objects like you Leftists do (when it suits you of course). No, we are blaming and holding accountable the actual criminal actions of MEN/PEOPLE/INDIVIDUALS that have and are continuing to cause the death of innocent civilians and sworn law enforcement officers.

      Guess what, Sparky…it is YOU and your ilk that are using this to forward your gun control agenda. You people started by falsely claiming that US guns made up 90% of the gun crime in Mexico. You ignored that the gun crime was committed by criminals 100% of the time and just tried to blame our guns. Your numbers were proven false, so you ramped it up…

      You then moved forward with Fast & Furious in an attempt to seed the area (Mexico) with more US-made guns so you could cry about how the evil guns and the evil Americans were killing people. You then pushed for more gun control.

      We caught you lying and doing these illegal acts and called you out on it. Your answer? Oh, you publically blamed the gun dealers who sold the weapons and tried to take action against them. When it was found out that they were acting on DOJ/ATF orders, your answer was to impose restrictions on how many rifles these dealers could sell.

      Sorry, it is YOU and your type that is continuing to foster gun control and continues to blame inanimate objects for crime.

    • Wolvie

      (The REAL) Facts (Part 3):

      “Just for the record, I don't like Obama, but I try to base my displeasure and dislikes on facts, not ill informed, irrational, hysterical rantings.”

      Translation: I do like Obama and I do support the Liberal/Socialist agenda.

      “There are so many good reasons to not like him, to not re-elect him, why chose one that is the fabrication of some shallow, megalomaniac like Issa, who is only trying to not look like the charlatan that he is.”

      Again, the Leftist projection. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Obama might not be so good…but Bush, Issa and all the other Republicans are REALLY bad!

      “And yep, I'm a real Libertarian – not a sheep blindly following, Lemming-like where ever intellectually challenged people would like for me to go.”

      No, we see you for what you are…Make no mistake about it. The good news is, you know where you stand with me…you are the enemy. You are the cancer. You represent everything that is evil, wrong and dangerous in the world by basis of your morally bankrupt culture and your hatred of a republic form of government based on liberty.

    • GlkHrt

      LibMan,

      How much money was spent by Mr. Holder and the DoJ on trying Roger Clemens for supposedly lying to congress? suing the state of Arizona over SB1070? trying John Edwards?
      Mr. Holder has no problem spending taxpayer dollars on the Obama agenda, which is simply more government control over individual freedoms.
      The AG is supposed to be the CLEO of our nation, and not the political lapdog of Mr. Obama.

  • Gil

    Libman,

    Facts: How many ways you try to rationalize your thoughts, you still come out looking stupid or at the very least uninformed! If you were from Chicago, you would know Obama and who his mentor was and his friends. Fact, we associate with people who tend to think along the same lines as we do. His friends, I would not want them for friends, neighbors or even to live in the same city. If you don't know what I am talking about, just maybe you should do a tiny bit of research. I know, don't confuse you with facts you have already made your mind up!

  • Wolvie

    Everyone here should take a good, hard look at Mr. Liberal-Man.

    This, my friends, is a prime example of what we are up against.

    This is the face of our enemy. They will come to you pretending to be like you. They will even lie about sharing the same passions that you do in order to gain your trust. They will do anything and everything to make you drop your guard. That's when they will show their true colors.

    Make no mistake that these animals want nothing more than your compliance and your servitude. Like the Matrix, you exist in their eyes as nothing more than a source of energy and income. Your money is their money. Your freedom is only what they grant you and your life is only to feed the machine that they live off of in the form of forced taxes, restrictive regulations and social compliance. Unable to create anything and unwilling to take responsibility for their actions, they need you to quietly support them as they continue to further entrench themselves in jobs and positions that they can never be fired from…regardless of their performance. Webster's defines this as a "parasite" or a "virus". Be sure to treat them as what they are.

    The liberal will always try to distort the facts, change the subject, make wild accusations &/or comparisons to misdirect you and sway the conversation away from things they don't want to address or admit. When this fails, they will fall back on what they "feel". That is their final play when out of options…they moan and cry about their feelings. They do this because that is the one area that you can't dispute or discuss with logic, facts or common sense.

    Give them nothing. Offer no compromise. If you give them an inch, they are already measuring out for the next mile they will want. This is the evil we must contend with and, ultimately, defeat.

    So take a look at this (semi-skilled) liberal. It didn't take long at all for him to drop part of his facade and start talking about gun control, trying to redirect attention from the present administration and, of course, showing his elitism by insulting everyone here as well as anyone who doesn't agree with him.

    Mr. Liberal-Man…you have been exposed for what you are. No need to even try any more of your lies here. To paraphrase a famous quote: "You have been weighed…you have been measured…and you have been found wanting".

    • brian

      You are an idiot!

      • Wolvie

        Aw, how cute…the 12-year-old came out to play!

        Is that the best you can do, given your limited intelligence and vocabulary?

        Speaking of idiots…here's a clue for you, child…

        In the immortal words of the great Samuel Clemens:

        It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt

      • Alan_T

        Brian ……. what an insightfull comment ! But you really shouldn't talk to your mirror like that Brian , people with think you're insane as well as being stupid !
        You truely are an idiot Brian

    • Alan_T

      Amen Wolvie !

  • LibertarianMan

    First, I think you shouldn't use words like hyperbole unless you know what they mean.

    Second, in this country, reasonable people can and do disagree. The rabid hate-mongering is truly un-American – in every way. This country is based on freedom – the same freedoms we all want. The fact that someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them the enemy. It doesn't make them evil. Such thoughts are truly un-American and have no place in this country.

    The fact that I choose not to blindly follow irrational behavior and thought, certainly doesn't make me anyone's enemy. Your overwhelming sense on insecurity is showing. I know these are tough times – change is always hard.

    There was no refutation of any of the facts presented in any sort of rational, cogent manner with the exception of the comment about redacted pages. It is my understanding from parties directly involved that this is simply not the case. If you have evidence to support that statement I would like to see it. After a careful reading, there are no facts, only ranting and vituperation – the tonic of the ignorant and lazy.

    Let's try for factual discussion. If you can't do that, then perhaps your opinions are invalid and erroneous.

    Perhaps you should look up Libertarian as well – I don't think you have a clue what that means either – hint: it isn't liberal.

    • Wolvie

      "First, I think you shouldn't use words like hyperbole unless you know what they mean."

      Oh, I know exactly what it means and I used it in the correct context. But your elitist attempt to insult me by claiming I don't know what it means is noted (and not unexpected).

      "Second, in this country, reasonable people can and do disagree."

      The key word here is reasonable. Liberals are not reasonable in that they cannot and will not accept any other point of view and they insist on others being regarded as subjects and fuel for their despicable lifestyle. Therefore, I offer no compromise when dealing with people like you and treat you like the enemy you are to our way of life.

      "The rabid hate-mongering is truly un-American – in every way."

      Yes, here we go…I'm the one that Un-American because I believe in the Constitution and loathe any and all that attempt to destroy it. But I have to give you credit…you haven't yet resorted to the Left's most famous accusation of "U R Ray-sist".

      "This country is based on freedom – the same freedoms we all want."

      No, the freedoms you want are completely different that the freedoms you want others to have.

      "The fact that someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them the enemy. It doesn't make them evil. Such thoughts are truly un-American and have no place in this country."

      This coming from the guy, who already in several posts, mocked, insulted, marginalized and scoffed at those who don't share his opinion. And yes, you ARE my enemy. Not because you don't agree with me…because you are part of an evil, morally bankrupt culture.

      "The fact that I choose not to blindly follow irrational behavior and thought, certainly doesn't make me anyone's enemy."

      Oops, he did it again! Yup, its his way or the irrational way.

      "Your overwhelming sense on insecurity is showing. I know these are tough times – change is always hard."

      Ah, an insult and the Left's constant talk of "change" all in one sentence! You just can't make this stuff up!

      "There was no refutation of any of the facts presented in any sort of rational, cogent manner with the exception of the comment about redacted pages."

      I refuted everything you said in a clear, concise and specific manner. You just didn't bother to read or respond to it so you'll just pretend it didn't happen. No surprise there…

      "It is my understanding from parties directly involved that this is simply not the case."

      Would that be the Democrat, Socialist and Commie parties?

      "If you have evidence to support that statement I would like to see it. After a careful reading, there are no facts, only ranting and vituperation – the tonic of the ignorant and lazy."

      Plenty of facts…and in video form. Every hearing of the House Oversight and Reform Committee is available on their official YouTube channel. I'm already subscribed to it for 2 years now and have watched every minute of every hearing and every part of the Fast and Furious scandal. Go watch it for yourself. Nah, you won't do that…easier just to make things up.

      "Let's try for factual discussion. If you can't do that, then perhaps your opinions are invalid and erroneous."

      I already presented the facts, exposed your phony facts and exposed you for what you really are. Your turn…

      "Perhaps you should look up Libertarian as well – I don't think you have a clue what that means either – hint: it isn't liberal."

      Oh, another snarky, elitist comment about my intelligence? How sweet! Here's a hint for you:
      Just because you chose that username doesn't make you one…in the same way I'm not really a wolverine. You have made it abundantly clear what you are and I choose to call you by your real persona. The fact that I have to explain that to you (and not that I misunderstood your phony username) is both funny and sad at the same time.

    • Wolvie

      Part 1:

      "First, I think you shouldn't use words like hyperbole unless you know what they mean."

      Oh, I know exactly what it means and I used it in the correct context. But your elitist attempt to insult me by claiming I don't know what it means is noted (and not unexpected).

      "Second, in this country, reasonable people can and do disagree."

      The key word here is reasonable. Liberals are not reasonable in that they cannot and will not accept any other point of view and they insist on others being regarded as subjects and fuel for their despicable lifestyle. Therefore, I offer no compromise when dealing with people like you and treat you like the enemy you are to our way of life.

      "The rabid hate-mongering is truly un-American – in every way."

      Yes, here we go…I'm the one that Un-American because I believe in the Constitution and loathe any and all that attempt to destroy it. But I have to give you credit…you haven't yet resorted to the Left's most famous accusation of "Racist".

      "This country is based on freedom – the same freedoms we all want."

      No, the freedoms you want are completely different that the freedoms you want others to have.

      "The fact that someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them the enemy. It doesn't make them evil. Such thoughts are truly un-American and have no place in this country."

      This coming from the guy, who already in several posts, mocked, insulted, marginalized and scoffed at those who don't share his opinion. And yes, you ARE my enemy. Not because you don't agree with me…because you are part of an evil, morally bankrupt culture.

    • Wolvie

      Part 2:

      "The fact that I choose not to blindly follow irrational behavior and thought, certainly doesn't make me anyone's enemy."

      Oops, he did it again! Yup, its his way or the irrational way.

      "Your overwhelming sense on insecurity is showing. I know these are tough times – change is always hard."

      Ah, an insult and the Left's constant talk of "change" all in one sentence! You just can't make this stuff up!

      "There was no refutation of any of the facts presented in any sort of rational, cogent manner with the exception of the comment about redacted pages."

      I refuted everything you said in a clear, concise and specific manner. You just didn't bother to read or respond to it so you'll just pretend it didn't happen. No surprise there…

      "It is my understanding from parties directly involved that this is simply not the case."

      Would that be the Dem, Socialist and Commie parties?

      "If you have evidence to support that statement I would like to see it. After a careful reading, there are no facts, only ranting and vituperation – the tonic of the ignorant and lazy."

      Plenty of facts…and in video form. Every hearing of the House Oversight and Reform Committee is available on their official You-Tube channel. I'm already subscribed to it for 2 years now and have watched every minute of every hearing and every part of the Fast and Furious scandal. Go watch it for yourself. Nah, you won't do that…easier just to make things up.

      "Let's try for factual discussion. If you can't do that, then perhaps your opinions are invalid and erroneous."

      I already presented the facts, exposed your phony facts and exposed you for what you really are. Your turn…

      "Perhaps you should look up Libertarian as well – I don't think you have a clue what that means either – hint: it isn't liberal."

      Oh, another snarky, elitist comment about my intelligence? How sweet! Here's a hint for you:
      Just because you chose that username doesn't make you one…in the same way I'm not really a wolverine. You have made it abundantly clear what you are and I choose to call you by your real persona. The fact that I have to explain that to you (and not that I misunderstood your phony username) is both funny and sad at the same time.

    • Wolvie

      Part 2:

      "The fact that I choose not to blindly follow irrational behavior and thought, certainly doesn't make me anyone's enemy."

      Oops, he did it again! Yup, its his way or the irrational way.

      "Your overwhelming sense on insecurity is showing. I know these are tough times – change is always hard."

      Ah, an insult and the Left's constant talk of "change" all in one sentence! You just can't make this stuff up!

      "There was no refutation of any of the facts presented in any sort of rational, cogent manner with the exception of the comment about redacted pages."

      I refuted everything you said in a clear, concise and specific manner. You just didn't bother to read or respond to it so you'll just pretend it didn't happen. No surprise there…

      "It is my understanding from parties directly involved that this is simply not the case."

      Would that be the Dem, Green and Commie parties? Oh yes, your little lie about being privy to parties directly involved in an attempt to appear more credible was not lost on me. Nice try though.

      "If you have evidence to support that statement I would like to see it. After a careful reading, there are no facts, only ranting and vituperation – the tonic of the ignorant and lazy."

      Plenty of facts…and in video form. Every hearing of the House Oversight and Reform Committee is available on their official YouTube channel. I'm already subscribed to it for 2 years now and have watched every minute of every hearing and every part of the Fast and Furious scandal. Go watch it for yourself. Nah, you won't do that…easier just to make things up.

      "Let's try for factual discussion. If you can't do that, then perhaps your opinions are invalid and erroneous."

      I already presented the facts, exposed your phony facts and exposed you for what you really are. Your turn…

      "Perhaps you should look up Libertarian as well – I don't think you have a clue what that means either – hint: it isn't liberal."

      Oh, another snarky, elitist comment about my intelligence? How sweet! Here's a hint for you:
      Just because you chose that username doesn't make you one…in the same way I'm not really a wolverine. You have made it abundantly clear what you are and I choose to call you by your real persona. The fact that I have to explain that to you (and not that I misunderstood your phony username) is both funny and sad at the same time.

    • James Tarr

      Here, LibMan, I'll make this simple for you. You say there are problems with my article. If you can prove to me, with documentation or references, that any of the facts presented in my article are inaccurate, I will correct it. As the only facts I presented were pulled from the public record or other news outlets, I don't think your problem is with my article…….but rather with reality.

      • Wolvie

        James,

        Take a look at his comments on this thread as well as the others he posted to.

        He specializes in hit-&-run posts containing nothing but snark, innuendo and elitism.

        Asking him for facts, documentation and references would be like asking him to run around the world really fast to reverse the rotation.

        On a related note…Ann Coulter just posted an article on her website (www.anncoulter.com) just today regarding the F&F scandal. It's a pretty good read and I think you'll enjoy it.

        But not you Mr. Liberal Man. I suspect if you go there, you might react the same way a vampire does in the sun.

        • Alan_T

          As usual Wolvie , you're right on the money ! The thing that amazes me though , is the amount of time that these trolls waste coming here ……. They apparently don't have lives .

      • Alan_T

        I think you are right Mr . Tarr , LibertarianMan thinks that he is somehow doing something couragous , which is only based in his mind and not reality !

  • Dale

    What Libman would have you beleive is that even though: 1) The Department of Justice, ATF, ICE and Homeland Secutity were involved in meetings regarding gun policy right before operation Fast and Furious. 2) Lanny Bruer signed the wiretap approvals for wiretapping the gun stores. 3) Career ATF employees raised a stink about the operation and complained up the chain of command. 4) Similar operations to Arizonia's were run in Texas and Florida. 5) The Department of Justice "recinded" the letter saying there was no approval of "gun walking" 5) Mexican officials have protested the operation and 6) Eric Holder denied knowing about the project under oath in the face of e-mails proving the contrary. But there is no proof that Obama or Holder knew anything. Libman can you please share with us the definition of "cognative dissonance"?

  • Protectorofthe2nd

    Well it all boils down to is this, OBAMA and HOLDER just commited TREASON under the fast and Furious which is grounds for both of them to be removed from office, which is what OUR 2nd AMENDMENT was created for to protect this COUNTRY and OUR CONSTITUTION, OUR RIGHTS, and OUR FREEDOM from BOTH FOREIGN and DOMESTIC TERRORISTS… And this is also the main reason why OBAMA and the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION has went after our 2nd amendment rights… THIS is FACT… Obama is against our right to keep and bear arms so he told Holder this is what he wanted to do to go after our 2nd amendment rights which HOLDER is against as well so they both done this to destroy our constitution but now Obama see's that this is now causing trouble for him and his re-election so he doesn't want it known that he's behind the whole thing that's why he's protecting all the documents,,.. The people that prints out the Soldier of Fortune magazines caught on to all of this way before it was publicize thru the news, and they went after him and Holder for it and put it in their magazine months before the news said anything about it. I didn't vote for Obama back then and I'm not voting for him this time, they really need to check in on how all these people voted for him that have been deceased for several years before he ran for office last time, man all the corruption that he's done should already have him in Prison for life….

    • Alan_T

      The President and the Attorney General ( MAN ! that sticks in my throat ! )both took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States . Seems to me that they are both trying to subvert The Constitution .
      Sounds like treason to me ………….

  • Burgerbritches

    The Bush Administration lied constantly and got us into Iraq. 6500 of our military gave their lives. America spent two trillion dollars. And Iraq today is the same as it was 20 years ago. But for some reason, Fast and Furious is what has this gutless right wing FILTH all stirred up. What kind of unAmerican trash spends their whole lives jerkin' off to Fox Fake News, but doesn't say a word about 6500 dead American military men and women??? You people are a disgrace!

  • Alan_T

    Burgerbritches , what an inventive name ….. assuming of course that you are a citizen of the United States , these people that you in your rage , are insulting are your fellow human beings somewhere in the neighborhood of half the people in the U . S . . So why are you here ? You evidently have mental health issues and of course it's always easier to be obnoxious when you can hide behind an anonymous name , so I put it to you Burgerbritches , that YOU and your foul mouth are the REAL disgrace !

    • john D

      You Sir are a Foreigner, some where between an alien unless you are ignorant of the fact that there is such a thing as a volunteer army, each solider that went to Iraq and Afghanistan to fight what the felt was a just cause I REPEAT THEY VOLUNTEERED what does that mean to you, the word Volunteer!!! Sodom Hussein was murdering His ON People as well as his Sons. The Taliban was horrible when it came to woman's rights as well.Yes Fast and Furious was wrong all the way around you are right!t Sir in this country if you want to shoot a gun you can and some people don't like that neither does are enemy's with an average of at least 3 to 15 guns and ammo per house hold in TEXAS people that are the enemy of State or UNITED STATES.You Sir what are you doing in this country if the people of the United States are a disgrace to you.I will tell you why because you can go down the road without check points and papers you can if you are not a convicted felon can buy any gun you want ,you can apply and get any job you are properly educated and trained for and therefore earn a good living and buy what you want. However you choose to live in a country that its people are a disgrace and you call them so!Now I ask who is fake! And did you in anyway help the soldiers that went to fight. No you didn't My advice to you is go back to CHAD or where ever your from, and see if you can live better than us that are a disgrace!

      • Alan_T

        John D …… I think you ment your reply for Burgerbritches , not me ……..;. At least , I hope you did !
        HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhA