The Guns & Ammo Network



The Problem with “Gun Free Zones”

Pittsburgh police say John Shick shot seven people (killing one) at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center Western Psychiatric Institute. Shick was killed by responding officers.

As I write this, the news is full of details about the latest tragic shooting, this one of seven people at a campus clinic at the University of Pittsburgh. John Shick entered the Western Psychiatric Institute, a wing of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, with two 9mm semi-auto handguns and opened fire. Shick wounded seven people, killing one of them. He was met by responding officers as he was attempting to flee and was shot and killed.

 

Stories include quotes from several people there about how they hid for fifteen or twenty minutes, hoping the gunman wouldn’t see them because they had no way to defend themselves. I don’t know the specific details about the University of Pittsburgh’s policies, but to me this is just another reminder of how Gun Free School Zones and other such idiocy doesn’t work in the real world.

 

Murder and Attempted Murder are much more serious crimes than the illegal carrying of a concealed weapon, so any unbalanced person with murder in their heart doesn’t give a damn what the law says about carrying a gun. Many of these shooting sprees are committed by people who are legally qualified to own guns, so unless you want to advocate the outright banning and confiscation of all privately-owned firearms in this country (good luck with that),  we’re always going to have to deal with those people who, for one reason or another, suddenly snap.

 

I attended Michigan State University for four years.  40,000 students annually attended MSU at the time—that’s more than the population of some towns. School rules mandated that all incoming freshmen had to live on campus their first year in the dorms, and weren’t allowed to have cars on campus. School policy also prohibited students from keeping any firearms on campus in their dorm rooms. Not just no concealed carry–no guns, period. I’m sure they thought they had good reasons for doing this, everything from preventing accidental shootings to keeping their insurance rates low, but what these policies actually do is effectively create a target-rich environment for any whacko who happens to wander along. Think that’s only paranoia? How about you Google “school shooting” and see how many results you get. I’ll wait. Virginia Tech and Columbine High are only the two most recognizable names on that very long list.

 

(RELATED: Active Shooter On The Loose…What Will You Do?)

 

That’s not to say students didn’t have a lot of guns on MSU’s campus anyway, especially during hunting season (lot of farmland close by), but the message universities are sending with these policies is, I think, the opposite one than they intend.  Their policies, instead of creating a “safe” environment for their children, create giant shooting galleries.  “Active shooters”, as the police call them, seem drawn to areas filled with defenseless people. Cops call them “active shooters” because all they seem to want to do is shoot people—they’re not interested in stealing money, or taking hostages, and they will keep shooting until they’re stopped.  If none of the law-abiding citizens on the scene is allowed to have a gun, the bad guy will keep shooting until the authorities show up, and like the saying goes, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

 

Gun Free Zones kill people.

  • Tim E

    Have you ever heard a shooting as a gun show or shooting match? No, and you probably never will. If the lunatics think you might be armed, they'll go elsewhere.

    • Vance A.

      Too funny but so true. You are absolutely right. When was the last time you heard of a Bad Guy trying to rob a gun store. hahaha It won't happen and if it does I don't think the Gun store will have much to worry about.

      • Roy P

        There was a recent attempted robbery in a pawn shop in my city. He had to have been a real idiot. Needless to say, the attempt failed.

    • Kevin Montgomery

      What I find hilarious is that people who do this are so mentally deranged according to reports but yet they always seem to have enough mental capacity to avoid places where people MIGHT be armed and able to shoot back!!

  • Vance A.

    Wow!! Kudos!! Well Put. It is crazy how these people who make these types of decisions actually believe bad guys will follow their rules or any laws about guns. This is what makes them the "Bad Guys". The sooner we allow our citizens to carry where they go and where it might be needed the most the better off we will be.

    • Roy P.

      Don't forget, these are the same people that seem to believe that you can multiply wealth by dividing it up.

    • Gary Lee

      I second the motion. I would be the first in line to get a ccw if they made it easier & not cost an arm and a leg to get 'cause there is no such thing as a secure school,mall or any where else. Those that think that are only fooling themselves.

  • Don

    Any liberal gun-hater you ask about this incident, will presumably respond as follows: "Well, if the Western Psychiatric Institute of the University of Pittsburgh had BEEN a gun-free zone, then that mass-murderer, John Shick wouldn't have shot anyone."

    And don't waste your time trying to argue against this assertion!

  • http://www.facebook.com/michaelvasseur72 Michael Vasseur

    This is a fine example of why one should carry concealed…not only may one defend him or herself, but also defend other innocent bystanders.

  • Tim McGuire

    Organized crime certainly hopes all guns are outlawed and confiscated. They stand to have a hell of a payday supplying illegal guns just as they do now with illegal drugs and just as they did with illegal booze during prohibition. LIberals dream of utopia but I have to tell them again and again that they won't find it in this world.

  • Ian

    In any normal town USA, there are only 3 groups of people that carry. 1. The police 2. The law abiding citizen with a Concealed Carry Weapon Permit, & last 3. Criminals, felons, gangs, ect. So when the city, town, school or business puts up a "gun free zone", the ones not permitted to carry is the ones abiding by the law. Do they really think a criminal is going "stop" his agenda when he see's one of these signs? It's a bunch of BS. All it is, is just a bunch of "Smoke and Mirrors" to make ignorant people feel safe. Felons & criminals don't follow the law, that's why they are criminals!

  • 2nd fundamentalist

    There will always be "gun free" zones as long as liberals are in charge. Recently, I did not participate in the Republican Caucus because it was held at a school. To carry on school grounds is not allowed, even though I have a concealed carry permit and it was not a school event. Go figure.

  • wolflover3825

    I have asked several anti-gun people that same simple questions. Exactly how does the gun free zones stop criminals from breaking those laws? and Exactly how does the 1000 foot mark stop criminals from being with in the 1000 feet? How do those laws stop the criminal who is intent on shooting and killing people? I have yet to get one response. Just insults are thrown at me.

  • Bill K

    Only two groups want total ban on firearms. Policticians(who have secruity all around them) and criminals, then they know that their victims are unarmed and not able to return fire. Criminals will always have and use weapons (not just guns) to do crimes. They are already breaking all the firearms laws now, so is all guns were gone, Oboy free rein..

  • Jdarrellhookem

    I bet the people who lost loved ones at one of these shooting wishes a licensed person with a concealed handgun could have protected them. It's ironic that any licensed carrier I know would try to help an innocent person; even if they are against LCC. We don’t single them out when they need help. “Ooops, hold on gunman, let me find out if they are for LCC. OK, they are not. Go ahead and shoot them. I doubt this would be the scenario and I feel this is what the anti LCC is trying to do to me, my family, and my friends. Take my protection away so the bad guys can have free aim. Let’s ban all weapons in the US; military and all. That will stop Al Qaeda, the Cartel and others. I wish the liberal gun hater would come up, or out, for some air; reality check!!

  • Dwayne

    I love this article. Every weird is truth and the prognosis is accurate. Guns free zones DO kill people. I carry and will always carry.

  • MACK

    THE PRESIDENT DOES NOT WANT CITIZENS TO HAVE GUNS I WONDER WHY

    • Roy P

      Lets just say he wants to protect his family and friends. I'll let you interpret the meaning of that one.

    • Tommy

      They want to disarm the populace so that when they finish bankrupting this country and the people want to revolt they won't be able to. Then all they have to do to fill up all those fema camps is round us all up and lock the gate.

  • Rick

    Kudos to Jamie on his article . I agree wholeheartedly that shootings like this occur in gun free zones.
    My policy is if i walk up to a business or any public place ,as a concealed carry owner carrying my gun,
    I WILL NOT PATRONIZE that business or public place for the reasons stated above .
    also I agrre with the above author" Why doesnt the current administration in Washington
    want us to have our guns" THINK ABOUT IT

  • Alan_T

    At BEST …… the people who promote nonsense like " gun free zones " are motivated by a pathological fear for their own safety . It's not about keeping other's safe ( which it doesn't ) , it's about desperately trying to keep themselves safe ( which , ironically , doesn't work either ) . You are wasting your time if you try to tell them differently because phobias are by nature unreasoning .

    • BigTex

      Really? At best? It's the haters and the cowards who feel the need to carry guns my little friend. I own a number of handguns. Never carry them about. Am still here. And if it helps – don't you be carrying one for my benefit – you' d likely end up shooting yourself in the a…..

      • Alan_T

        Aaaaaaaaaaah Tex , Tex , Tex there you go again ….. anyone that follows these blogs knows that you are a liar and a trouble maker ….. what was it that the guy on the other blog called you ? an " agent provocateur " ?
        As for dogging me and the insults you are constantly throwing my way , you must feel especially threatened by me , MY cowardly LITTLE FRIEND . Seriously Tex , you're just making yourself look bad HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • JJ_Swiontek

    There are a couple of good articles about the thinking of people who support gun control at jpfo.org

    • micko77

      JPFO has members who have seen gun control at its worst, and still bear the tattoos from the camps. I tend to pay attention to them more than the weekly phone call for money from the NRA. Yes, I'm a member of both, but were it not for The Second Amendment Foundation, JPFO and others there would nave been no Heller decision; NRA didn't want to put it on the line on that case.

  • Roy P

    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
    Thomas Jefferson

    Did you know that in 25 states you can go into a store and buy a rifle, sling it over your shoulder and walk around without breaking a single law? Now…did you also know that 4/5ths of the murders in this country happen in the other 25 states?

    Liberals have neither shame nor sense. Don't forget that this very day, Obama "blocked" the recent Texas voter ID law. Obviously the guy is running for emperor.

    • BigTex

      Only in the glorious US of A. Keep making' the stupid arguments for more guns boys and the rest of the world will just sit back with its ridiculous laws and watch your numbers continue to dwindle from handgun murders. If more guns less gun laws and less restrictions would help why does the glorious US lead the world with handgun killings? Is there anybody out there???

      • J99

        Because the US has a hell of a lot of criminal low lives who want their drugs and will do anything to get it. What do they carry? Handguns. What do gang members shoot other gang members with? Handguns.

  • micko77

    It's been mentioned that only 3 types of people carry: cops, CCW holders and criminals. I'd like to address this last group. "Gun-free school zone" = dead student zones; the same happens if you happen to live in Illinois, for example. The otherwise law-abiding person chooses to view, rightly in my opinion, that the Second Amendment is our concealed carry permit; that he would "rather be tried by twelve than carried by six." Some would lump him in with the drug-dealing gang-bangers because "HE broke the LAW!" while others would view an irrational law as such, and see the man as simply one who wishes to survive, and perhaps saving others in the doing. Thoughts?

    • CHLholder1911

      Some pro gun people need to start a few private universities, maybe start in Texas, that will allow CCW and see how this will take off?

  • dave dray

    The second amendment the ONLY law that restricts the government not the people and of course they want to repeal it!!!!!!!

    • Quadmax

      The second amendment is not the only law that restricts the government–the entire bill of rights does that, as do several other portions of the Constitution. Unfortunately, those inside the beltway have gotten very good at creatively ignoring most of it.

    • Pdog

      The entire bill of rights is a list of individual rights that the government shall not infringe upon. It was an acknowledgement that there are rights that we are entitled to simply by way of being human. This is what makes me laugh. Liberals stand up for 9 of the 10 amendments, but they can't seem to understand how contingent they all are on the 2nd. If the government takes away the 2nd amendment, they can forcefully take away any or all of the others.
      Guns don't kill people..stupid, ignorant, or marginalized people kill people.

  • Survivor

    I carry regardless, always. No matter where, except courthouses. If its truly concealed, you are safe. If a situation develops, you are still safe, at least with viable options. I will survive , likely. The liberal morons…….?

    • Reinier

      I agree! There's a saying that says "its better to be trailed by twelve than carried by six"

  • TACOPS

    I carry ALL the time. If you are educated and trained correctly about concealed carry, you are never without a firearm. I carry in the house. So many people have been victimized because they figure they have a firearm in the home, so they must be safe. Where is it? How far away are you from it when the door is kicked in?
    Another simple rule………..never ever be more than 5 seconds away from a reload. Unless you are regular about practicing different scenarios, your adrenaline could empty your first load of ammo.
    Be safe. Be careful out there.

    • Flashing Lights

      WTF

  • BJ DAVIS

    Gun shop owners should take down there no loaded firearms signs, it's like saying, you support me but I don't trust you, Come on guys, really

  • Snug

    Another great little law is the"drug free school zone" , anyone ,even the idiot who wrote that little jem of legal mumbo-jumbo ,should recognise that it really says is: outside that zone drug deals are legal.
    The best cure for drug dealers might just be to force them to take ALL their own drugs and observe them for say a week or two then document time of death .

  • Tom

    You're obviously preachimg to the choir here. Too bad some of our reppresentatives and senators at both the State and Federal levels would read this and act on it. Fat chance. Their minds are made up. They don't want to be confused by facts.

  • Kris

    "Gun Free Zones" only prevent self-defense and effectively create "hunting preserves." Not just a bad idea–it's a disastrous one.

  • gordon

    As a special agent with the u.s. treasury dept., I carried a concealed weapon in the state of New Jersey for years. I am now a senior and reside in PA where I can legally carry. Do you think I will not carry in NJ when I shop or visit there? Does crossing a river mean that the 2nd amendment does not apply? The liberal do gooders are completely out of touch with reality. I'm surprized that they have not enacted a law that "everyone must be kind and courteous".

    • M. James

      100% right sir.

      Look at the recent incidents in NY City that put a honorably discharged Marine,
      and a professional nurse in deep trouble thanks to strict Bloomberg gun laws.

      Use hollowpoint ammo, look at the legal stuff you got to follow http://www.nj.gov/njsp/about/fire_hollow.html

      I live in NC and it is great, like PA.

  • Shalimar

    Bravo! Very well put… too bad the nutcases that are "anti" just don't get it. :(

  • BigTex

    What a crock of crap. It amazes me as to the lengths one will go to delude themselves. So – let's all carry more guns and that way less people will get killed. Well boys- no one carries more guns than the inmates (oops – citizens) of the glorious and good old USA and yet nowhere are there more handgun murders. So how in the name of god can anyone suggest that the way to less handgun murders is to carry more handguns? Moronic and ignorant thinking ladies .. But if it makes you feel better …have at it ….

    • J99

      ^ dumbass

  • micko77

    Another intellectual stretch– retired law enforcement officers may carry nationwide via Congress, but not "ordinary citizens". I have no beef with LEO's, and hold them generally in high regard, but what makes their lives inherently more valuable than "ordinary citizens"? There are a number of laws that apply to "ordinary citizens", but not LEO's. This concept puts a divide between 2 groups of citizens, illegitimate on its face. Yes, there are those who would hunt down retired cops, so make ALL citizens equal in the eyes of the law. That would reduce both crime and the dichotomy between groups. Otherwise, LEO's will become more militarized in the eyes on John Q. Public, not something we want.

  • bwards

    Part of the problem we face as a licensee for CCW is lack of identity. The public and officials must recognize that we are cleared by local and national agencies as "sane, trained and checked" as thoroughly as many law enforcement personnel and the average military member. If there was a federal reciprocity law, it would force the high standards that should exist within the individual states. We should embrace mandatory training, qualification and licensing, periodic requalification and authorization of higher privileges. I do not want licensing to be “too” difficult; nor “too” easy. There are definitely some law abiding people around that I don’t want carrying a concealed weapon!

    Think about it… if we are trained well and licensed, we fit the term “organized militia” and are fully protected by the constitution.

  • kat

    I work at Pitt. I am also a gun owner. In my building, not just handguns but all weapons are forbidden. Because I use public transit to get to and from my office, this leaves me in an unfortunate situation where I am relatively defenseless every time I go to work. Especially since I am a woman, I would much prefer to be able to carry a handgun, or even a freaking can of pepper spray, when I get stuck walking through a sketchy neighborhood after dark.

    But I still don't believe that the university should be an open-carry fiesta. College students are technically adults, yes. But I don't think that the current university culture is one that can coexist with projectile weapons. Especially in our current generation of kids who have been brought up in an insanely overprotective environment, college is the first time they get any freedom whatsoever. And when you're young and out from under your parents' thumb for the first time, you tend to be a little excessive with alcohol. A bunch of drunk 18-year-olds with guns is a recipe for tragedy. And I would personally feel less safe on a college campus where concealed carry is permitted. I know all too well what it is like to be on a campus with an active shooter. It happened last week. However, I have been living and/or working on college campuses for over a decade, and this is the first time such a thing has ever happened at a university I was affiliated with. Meanwhile, undergraduate students get into trouble with drinking or drugs, or just use terrible judgement, every day. Every weekend, someone gets into a fight on pretty much every college campus. Although they are technically adults, 18-22 year-old students do not function at a fully-adult level. Part of it is just how our society and culture currently operate — the students don't have any sense of responsibility — and part of it is that their brains aren't done developing yet (there is a lot of evidence that the brain isn't done maturing until 25 or so). Either way, if my students were allowed to carry guns on campus, I would be wearing body armor under my lab coat. Because I can guarantee you that there WOULD be deaths. We are talking about a group of people whose judgement is so poor that they will drive while drunk, scream obscenities out of cars at the TAs who grade their work, or plagiarize entire essays off of Wikipedia (really? Do they think we don't check?) Is this a group of people you want to be carrying guns? Especially in PA, where you can obtain a license to carry without ever having to demonstrate that you've taken a firearms safety course or any other form of training?

    And another side of the question is: Is there a way to let the sane members of society have access to their Second Amendment rights, while preventing the John Schicks of this world from getting guns? This is a man who had previously been committed to a mental institution, a man who was known to commit violent and antisocial crimes against police officers, a man who was so visibly disturbed and alarming that he was expelled from graduate school for harassing female students. We don't allow toddlers to have handguns, because they aren't able to act like reasonable/sane adults. And I believe the severely mentally-ill, especially those with a history of violence, should also have restricted access to guns — like a toddler, they cannot handle them responsibly.

    So maybe some heroic member of the public could have stopped the shootings at Western Psych before the LEO's got there. But Pitt police arrived VERY quickly and killed the shooter. For a shooting on a university campus, we had a very low number of injuries (seven) and fatalities (two, including the shooter). Would someone with a CCW permit in our state have performed as well? (Bear in mind that it is entirely possible in our state for that individual to have had no training in the use of the weapon they would be permitted to carry.) And what happens in a situation where there is a shooter and a bunch of would-be saviors with guns? It seems to me that there would be a lot of room for additional confusion and tragedy, both between the private citizens and between the officers responding to the scene.

  • M. James

    Drivers run red lights all the time, the red light is clear, it tells drivers they need to stop but they don't.

    My bank has a sticker on the door FBI: Federal Offense to rob a bank, but people still do it.

    Locks keep out honest people, 'gun free zones' invite armed individuals that want to hurt innocent people.

    • Utile

      Then how come there are so many murders in Texas?

  • russ

    Why do all conservatives assume that all gun haters are liberal. Myself and friends , all liberals, regularly
    shoot and have ccw licenses. Get off the liberal kick. We are not any different than you when it comes to guns.

  • Russell

    I think you need to go back and read the 2nd Amendment. It talks not only about an armed milita, but about the PEOPLES right to keep and bear arms. And it adds that this right SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. Look up the meaning of infringed and you'll find that even a concealed carry license is an infringement upon our rights as American citizens. I challenge you to look up the meaning of every word in the 2nd Amendment in a dictionary, and then reaccess what it means.

  • Kelsey

    This guy was my lab ta at duquesne and he wore that fanny pack he carried his gun and meds in during lab. I would describe him as scary and unstable. Its sad the way things ended.

  • Rob Morse

    I'm sorry for the victims and their family.

    We have a mental health facility where people are frequently upset and not in complete control of their decisions or actions. We post signs so honest people will be disarmed. We do not screen all who enter and provide armed guards to protect the vulnerable.

    That sounds like negligence to me.

    What does it sound like to you?

  • Craig

    Better to be tried by twelve then carried by six.
    Always make sure you carry.